Talk:Decomposition
Shift in Major Ideas, Sections Hello. I am writing in regards to your Decomposition article. While I feel the essence of the article is excellent, and worthy of inclusion, I also believe it requires alot of work. Before we get to that work, I wanted to discuss it first, as there are many areas, and many levels of critique I seek to raise. First and foremost is your claim that.... While zombies are undead corruptions of the natural world, they are not impervious to the laws of nature. I believe this is categorically false. If you would refer to Problems with realism in zombie fiction, you would see that Zombiepedia does recognize this large (and as you've keenly pointed out, almost certainly intentional) oversight of the genre. Decomposition is a closer runner up to locomotion as far as things a scientific mind must suspend disbelief about to enjoy the genre. How does a dead thing move? How can it last months/years when it doesn't sleep, drink, and may not even get nourishment out of feeding? And even if it does, no zombie writing or film has ever made it known that a zombie was too low on energy to move. The point being that zombie writers either have to conveniently ignore certain issues, or explain them away. Brooks Zombies, which are the official zombies of Zombiepedia (it was founded on his works) explain why they are practically immune to decomp. The general idea is not terribly far fetched (In the film Contagion, the CDC couldn't develop a vaccine for the virus because the virus was so universally lethal, they couldn't develop any sort of cell that it wouldn't kill, so they had no testing field to work with it), although the scope of it's lethality may be (every lifeform from bears to bacteria instinctively knows to keep away from a chemical/virus with 100% mortality rate). Without microorganisms to resist the zombie's supernaturally persistent state, Brooks puts a zombie's shelf life at 3-10 years before wear and tear renders a zombie immobile. Still, as I said earlier, I like the idea of an article about decomp. Perhaps a survivor's observations on a normal human's or animals decomp might give them a vague idea about how much time has passed since it's death. And while Brooks Zombies are the primary zombie we discuss, it obviously isn't the only one. So I'm thinking the first part would be about general decomp (much of what was originally posted is fine), a second part that briefly touches on how Solanum negates this, and maybe a third on how decomp does (as in The Walking Dead) or doesn't (as in 28 Days Later) affect other known types of zombies. The whole thing at this point should be extremely open, allowing for all sorts of future contributions from different writers. In the early phases of scientific classification, when things are largely unknown, scientists rarely draw certain conclusions. They just keep it open, and say "This is how it tends to be, based on what we've noticed". Lastly, while most of the forensics sounds about right, I can't believe that under normal circumstances, most corpses are little more than skeletons after only a week. Maybe in extreme conditions like a rain forest, but other than that, it doesn't sound right. — [[User:Philodox|'<<— ''Philodox —>>']] talk 13:08, August 15, 2012 (UTC) :Hey there. I gladly welcome debate! I do apologise if my article went a little wild there. This is a topic of the genre I have long thought about so my thoughts just sort of flew out. :Your first critique about the mobility of zombies I think, in my mind, can be answered. I have not read World War Z in over a year, so I am a little sketchy, but I do recall something on the lines that when the brain re-sparks physical mobility is one of the few systems that come back on line, so to speak. Hence they are mobile because it is one of the few systems reactivated, but not active enough to completely stave off what is clearly the onset of rigor mortis, hence the stereotypical stiff-bodied shuffle. The thing about decomposition though is that as the heart and lungs do not return to any form of functionality, this results in the process of decomposition beginning. I do not recall if Brooks alludes to zombies running out of steam but Hannah from The Walking Dead is a massively weakened zombie due to obviously having at least 50 - 60% of her body mass eaten away, but it is also mentioned in the director's transcripts that she was starved, even as a zombie. :The only way I could see a zombie having an extended shelf-life is if Solanum preserves limited organ function aside from the brain. Without electronic stimulae and oxygen coursing through blood vessels and organs, tissue dies. Perhaps the limited brain function does enough to send stimulae to organs so that they operate at a vastly reduced level so as to stave off decomposition? That's something interesting and plausible. :28 Days Later is an exception in my mind. Those infected do not in fact die before turning. Much like in I Am Legend, they are very much alive but overcome by a rabid rage. I think they're in a completely different category to zombies, who are dead. I believe the infected in 28 Days & I Am Legend could succumb to starvation and dehydration. :I agree on the timeframe, which I will review. :VibeKilla (talk) 12:35, August 18, 2012 (UTC) ::In 28 Days Later, it is implied (if not outright stated) by the Major that since the infected don't think to drink water or eat food that they don't have to chase after, they do tend to die of thirst or hunger. I Am Legend did not cover this aspect of vampire/zombie existence, but if they rest, and have a heartbeat, it implies they could be considered alive, and their appearance is not due to actual decomposition, but some other process associated with the infection. ::I'm not sure if it is the Zombie Survival Guide, or World War Z, but Brooks did definitively state that scientists did confirm that the only organ system his Zombies depend on is the (dramatically weakened) nervous system. They shamble as soon as they rise again, even when all other systems are structurally sound. Each solanum infected cell is gradually changed to gelatinous, toxic, super-oxgenated organic ballistics gel. Micro organisms (nor any other decomposing life form) do not interact with Solanum infected flesh in anyway. As earlier mentioned, this all but slows decomposition down to a crawl. ::Think of it this way. Imagine an astronaut dies on a spacewalk, and is drifting towards the sun though will take his body centuries or longer to reach it. As most of space is below freezing temperatures, all the cells in his body will be frozen, and no decomposition will occur. As he draws nearer to the sun, space will warm up to the levels his cells and other micro organisms function at, and will either fail because they are no longer receiving oxygen or fuel that was circulated by his circulatory system, or in the case of the independent micro organisms that have evolved to assist human in digestion, will eat away at whatever cells they can for their survival. Those are the two basic causes of decomp as I understand it. Cells die because they don't get life support, and because the bacteria in our digestive system says "Screw it, if no more food is coming down the pipe, I'll just have to eat my apartment". ::In World War Z, the zombies (through a process that scientists have studied, and still have made any progress with) and their cells do not need fuel of any kind to operate. They don't digest what they "eat". Their power source is totally unknown. Perhaps the oxygenation is a waste product, because it is produced mysteriously, and not obviously utilized. ::As for the Walking Dead, Hannah (and others) have definitive signs of decomp for sure. In Hannah's webshort on the official Walking Dead site, it is shown that Hannah dies on basically first day that the infection causes mass panic and evacuation. It can be inferred that for whatever reason, the zombies stopped eating her months ago. I haven't read the books, but I feel it's reasonable to think that at some point, decomposition slows to a crawl to support the idea of hordes/herds that can shamble month after month, year after year. Otherwise, the survivors will know that they are in the clear when all of the zombies they see are more bone than flesh, and then gradually cannot pursue survivors, because they can't hold themselves together. This seems unlikely, and the books have been going on for years. In speculative fiction, the science is almost always overlooked/altered to sustain the story. ::So, to sum it all up, In World War Z, they already thought of this problem, and made a sci-fi, yet realistically impossible solution for it, in The Walking Dead, you are spot on with decomp observation, but they are almost certainly going to overlook it to as to not put an expiration date on the zombie apocalypse, and we have various qualities of the infected that suggest neither decomp nor death actually applies. :: — [[User:Philodox|'<<— Philodox —>>''']] talk 15:32, August 18, 2012 (UTC)